Transcript

Rowena
Right, we’re gonna jump right on in here. For those who don’t know who you are Kate Toon, they’ve obviously been under a rock. But can you give us a bit of an introduction to who you are and where your career started and what you were doing initially?

Kate
I think I’ve been under a rock today as well. So forgive me if this is a bit babbley . So who am I, I am Kate Toon, I am the founder of Stay Tooned, which is a collection of digital education companies. Now there are three companies within my company, if that makes sense. But it’s been a long road to get here. So I’m 12 years into running my own business. Before that I worked in events, digital marketing, advertising, at some big agencies like Ogilvy and advertising.com, both here and in the UK. And then I went freelance about, 12 years ago, I know that because I had my son in my tummy, I was five months pregnant. And I knew I wasn’t gonna get maternity leave. So I took a leap of faith started Kate Toon.com. And the rest, as they say is history. But I’m sure we’ll dig into some of that history today.

Rowena
This episode, and this issue is all about professionals who have taken a kind of a bit of a left hand turn in whatever way, shape or form that has taken for them. So what made you embrace your inner misfit entrepreneur and take your career off the beaten path a little bit?

Kate
Well, I think in the early years, I didn’t do that. So when I started, you know, I wanted to be a copywriter. I wanted to just earn money, I think so I did a little bit of everything. But I think copywriting was the thing that I felt like I could make money in so I looked at everyone else. I looked at their websites, and I just literally was inspired by she says doing air fingers. I literally copied their formula, you know, and created a similar website, all copywriters are required to have a picture on their homepage of their hands hovering over a keyboard. So I got the picture of the hands, a nice picture of me in a jumper with my hand on my chin looking like a copywriter. And it was okay, you know, I did that for a couple of years. Then I kind of sort of thought well, SEO is a thing I’m doing rather well at SEO, I’m ranking number one for like hundreds of keywords, I could teach people that I could niche down. But that was still very vanilla and very normal and professional. And then even when I started the Recipe for SEO Success and The Clever Copywriting School, which was about six years in coinciding with my son going to school, again, I was very normal and professional and I hid behind those brands because I thought no one’s gonna take an SEO course seriously, if they know I’m behind it. I know that sounds ridiculous. But, you know, no one’s gonna want to join a Clever Copywriting school if they know that it’s led by me. And that’s such self doubt and imposter syndrome. Really, it’s only been the last three or four years that I’ve started to kind of embrace my inner misfit, writing the book was a big part of that. And it came from necessity, because I am odd. And I spent a long time trying to pretend I’m not odd. And it’s exhausting. It’s exhausting trying to turn up and be someone you’re not. And so it was a it wasn’t like a hairpin turn. It was a gentle, slow arc towards being myself. And it’s taken a few years to fully immerse myself in myself, which sounds very self absorbed. But you know what I mean?

Rowena
Well, you were on clubhouse this morning, and you said that someone had described you as deliciously bonkers.

Kate
Yes, I sat with that for a bit and I was like, is that a good thing? Can you be smart and pass on ideas and, you know, have people buy your products if you’re bonkers? You know what I mean? But I think it’s a term of endearment because there’s loads of people out there who now about SEO and copywriting and digital marketing, there’s loads of people who’ve written books. And the more odd you are. I mean, you’re pretty odd. Rowena, come on

Rowena
I’ll own that. Yep, I’ll bring it on.

Kate
And all the all the best people are the people who don’t take themselves too seriously. Clubhouse is a great example. I mean, so many rooms that are just full of, hey, girlfriend kind of people or seven figure entrepreneurs, and you know, cliched lines, and it just very quickly becomes boring. And the people that I’m attracted to are the oddbods, the Misfits, the unusual types, and therefore, for me being my true self is challenging and interesting, but it’s much more enjoyable. And I’m a big believer that my business should be enjoyable. Otherwise, what’s the point, I may as well go and work in Woolworths?

Rowena
Right, and at least, then you might get a decent discount on groceries. Exactly. And this feels like it steps really into that whole push and pull between a personal brand and a professional brand, that a lot of people who have come from a corporate space they struggle with that, they really struggle with, that their biggest value often is inside them, not defined by what other people are telling them and what space they need to fit into. Do you see that a lot with the people that come through your courses and come to work with you?

Kate
Yes, I mean, I think everyone’s banging on about personal branding at the moment. And I think it’s a real challenge for a lot of people. Because, you know, true personal branding is about understanding your values, yes, what you stand for what you won’t stand for, but it’s also understanding your brand personality, and not just the good bits. Like, you know, if we were to put our best self out there, we would all be professional and knowledgeable and, you know, authoritative and creative. But we’re also, impatient and jaded and a bit bitter and sarcastic, and, you know, short tempered, and the true personal brands embrace both the good and the bad. And as I said, with the slightly bonkers, lots of professional people would be appalled to be described that way. Because they would worry that you, as I said, that you can’t be that and also make money. But you really, really can. And so I do find that people coming from a corporate background, or even just an introvert background, find it very hard to put their full selves out there online, they really struggle with it. And I understand why because it’s scary, you know, and some people are going to not like it. And the problem is, is if you put a product out there, and people don’t like it, well, that’s okay. Because it’s separate from you. If you put yourself out there your true self with all your lumps and bumps and wierderies, and people don’t like it, well, then they are actually saying, I don’t like you. And that takes a lot of confidence to go well, on jog on night, I don’t like you either, or that’s your problem. You know, I’m not for you. Brilliant, there will be somebody out there for you. And that’s I think what the scary thing is about taking the left turn, as you’re talking about in this issue,

Rowena
I’m officially putting the word wierderies into my vocabulary, because that is just awesome. It feels like it sums up me in so many ways. And it sums up so many of the people I find that I attract as well like those people that have those quirks and celebrate them, they are my kind of people.

Kate
Yeah, and this is it and you make the thing with weirderies is you make an immediate connection, like we’ve only spoken a number of times, and yet I feel like I know you so well already really like you know, we’d have a good time if we went out. And that is important. Because you know, if you’re vanilla, and you’re only kind of you know, you’re very serious very professional. And you’re very capable, I may appreciate you, I may admire you, but I’m probably not going to like you that much, I’m probably not going to trust you that much. And if I don’t like you and I don’t trust you, then I’m much less inclined to buy from you or want to have any kind of business relationship with you.

Rowena
And I feel like it’s a big thing when it comes to branding. Like being a graphic designer myself. So many people use a brand as something to hide behind. And that’s perfectly okay if that’s what the space that you want to be in and stuff like that. But I believe sSuz Chadwick, who is now my coach, and also was in the last issue. She really says that, you know, there’s two people in this world, if you’ve got a voice that you want to share, then you’re going to have to find a way to get comfortable into that space. You know, you’re going to have to start to embrace your wierderies or embrace like, the things that make you different and stuff like that and figure out a way that you’re comfortable to step into that space. If you really, you have a voice and you have things you want to be heard.

Unknown Speaker
Yeah, which is what I just said. So Suz and I are on the same page.

Rowena
Yeah. So you have many strings to your business bow you offer a range of services. I know that you’ve been in this for 12 years and I feel like another thing that you said on Clubhouse recently as well as that you actually have to find something that you’re happy to be talking about for years to come because this wasn’t just a now thing. It’s it’s a forever thing for the people that are all in. What is your favourite thing right now? I imagine it’s very different to what it was when you first started out? What’s your favourite thing about your business?

Kate
Yeah, just to caveat, that thing about finding something you can talk about forever. I don’t think it’s forever. I think it’s for a serious amount of time. I think a lot of people come up with ideas, and they try them for three months, and then they drop them. So when I’m talking about serious amount of time in the business world, I think that’s probably 1 2 3 years. You know, you have to spend a good three years building something before you can let it go and move to the next stage. And I don’t think it’s about completely pivoting. I know I said, pivot, I apologise, every two minutes. It’s more of a Madonna-esque evolution. You know, we all love Madonna. We remember Madonna. She’s had many different phases in her personality. Katy Perry is another example. I love using pop stars. But they’re still essentially Katy Perry and Madonna. So for me, I feel like it is a Madonna kind of evolution, started off as a copywriter and moved became very well known for SEO then got a bit fed up with that and wanted to be known for copywriting again, then moved into speaking, now it’s kind of digital marketing. And now you know, I’m not entirely sure what I’m known for and I think that’s my little journey at the moment to kind of work that out. What I love about at the moment, I think is, I don’t know, I love the variety. I love the creativity, I love helping people. But you know, I don’t know Rowena, to be honest, and I think I want to admit that like I’m 12 years in and I don’t know who I want to be next and what my brand 100% represents even the misfit entrepreneur brand. I mean, I wrote that book five years ago, you know, and I’ve sold a lot of copies of it, but it’s not even true to where I’m at right now, you know, back then I was saying, Oh, I don’t need a team. And I don’t need this. Now I have a team. So it’s a constant evolution. But if you build a good personal brand, people will come along for the ride, regardless of what you’re talking about, what you’re doing, what your products are, people are connected to you, the human, not you the logo, and I think that’s the key. So that gives me a bit of space this year to work out who I want to be when I grow up.

Rowena
I don’t think I’m ever going to grow up. And I’m totally okay with that. And I think you’ve hit the nail on the head, it’s allowing yourself that space in business to adapt and grow, and not necessarily be sold and so strict on yourself that you know, you go. But you know, it’s a waste of time. If I go this other way, nothing’s a waste of time. If it’s something you’re passionate about something that you want to learn about. It’s not always Yeah.

Kate
And it sounds a bit conflicting. Because on the one hand, I’m saying think of a thing, do it for a while, you know, sing your one song for a while be known for that. But then on the other, I’m saying you can do whatever you like, because you’re a personal brand but is a bit like it is fluid, I love to have a plan. I do I love to have a plan, but I don’t like to get too attached to it. So at the moment, I’m honestly taking my business day by day. And I think that’s an impact of COVID and 2020. And I just today, I’ve got just telling you before we started chatting that I’ve got a horribly busy week, and reframing that I’ve got a delightfully full week of things. So this week, I’m not even I haven’t got time to think about what my brand is or who I’m serving or what my values are, I just need to get my bum on the seat and do the things. And I think sometimes we can be a bit navel gazey, and we could overthink this too much. And you know, we have our mood boards and our brand charts and our, you know, even just no disrespect our business coaches or whatever, we’re just thinking about ourselves so much and it can get quite self involved. A lot of being successful in business is just turning up and getting through bleeding day, you know, persisting and doing the best you can. And I know that doesn’t sound glamorous, or intellectual, but it’s the reality I suppose after 12 years of doing this, not every day is exciting and branded and thoughtful and value filled, a lot of days it just kind of doing the do, you know.

Rowena
The grind.

Kate
The grind, but it’s fun. You got to enjoy struggle, and I do enjoy the struggle. And I think that’s really important.

Rowena
Now from listening to your on Clubhouse and podcasts and Instagram, I know you have a wealth of knowledge on a variety of topics and with 12 years and doing that ebb and flow of different things that you’ve dipped your toes into and jumped full feet first into as well. I’m going to fire some questions at you because I’ve had a lot of people go, oh my god, you’ve got Kate Toon on I can’t wait to hear this episode. So I’m like, you know what, instead of doing like this big broad thing, I want to get your take on a variety of things. So that people some really nice snappy takeaways. Okay. So, Clubhouse is the new kid on the block. It’s kind of been around long enough for us to like get a bit of a vibe for if it’s for us or not, but there’s still some people that go What the hell’s Clubhouse? Can you give us like the purpose of it and maybe some of the highs and lows or your hints and tips around if Clubhouse is for you?

Kate
Yeah, so I’ve got a little seven day guide that I can give the link to which kind of explains a bit more of the What, the Why, the how. And essentially, it’s an audio based social media platform. So it’s bit like zoom, but you can’t see each other, you know, you can just see a little thumbnail of the person. And without the video aspect of zoom, it genuinely allows people to be a bit freer and to talk more openly. It’s kind of like podcasts, the intimacy and the closeness of a podcast, you know, you really, really love for podcasts a person and you’ve listened to them week after week, and you feel like they’re your best friend. It’s like a bit like that. And it’s, it’s really great for introverts, because obviously, you’re not on camera. You know, I’ve done some fantastic clubhouse rooms in the bath, walking the dog, in my knickers on the beds, you know, it doesn’t matter, no one has to know. So I think that’s kind of the what of it, in terms of how it’s useful for your business. Look I think at the moment, it’s useful for people who have things to say, who are coaches, who are thought leaders who want to be known for their brand, for their thing, I’m not sure it’s quite as useful for service based businesses, unless, again, they’re willing to step out in front of their brand and have an opinion about something, you know, you can’t just turn up and go, I’m a graphic designer, and stop talking, you have to be I’m graphic designer that fundamentally believes that we should not be using Canva, you know, or something contrarian, and you know, you have to be known for something. And it’s also about offering a lot of value. And the issue with that is people who have the time to offer that kind of value and invest in clubhouse, generally are already quite successful anyway, you know, because they got the time to spend five hours a day on clubhouse, what, you know, what are you doing, you know, when you have any work to do. So at the moment, it seems to be a lot of coaches, I mean, I think they said today, there’s now 10 million people on clubhouse, which is still tiny compared to the other platforms. Most rooms, it’s the same people turning up each time. For me, it’s been very useful for that kind of top of funnel, brand awareness. You know, I’ve interacted with people all over the world who’ve never heard of me before, they’ve then signed up to my email, join my facebook group, downloaded my thing. And a few of them have then joined my coaching program, my membership. So it has worked, the full flow has worked. But I think anybody who sits here and says it’s exactly for this, I think they’re talking out of their bum. Because we don’t know yet. We’ve got to wait and see, at the moment, it’s a bit of an indulgence, and I’m pulling back a little bit this week, because at the end of the day, I’ve got to serve the people who’ve already given me money, rather than giving away all my goodness to those who haven’t.

Rowena
No, but it’s cut straight to it because I felt very much the same as well, like, there’s definitely a part of me, that’s still thinking about how I could use it to step into a space, have some really interesting conversations and almost use it as a research platform, like I think you’ve really got to define when you go onto a new platform, what the purpose is going to be for you. Rather than going oh, well, this person uses it for this. So I’m going to do the same thing. I made a sort of, to use the favourite word, again, a pivotal point in my business where I’m looking at doing some left turning myself, basically. And I’m realising that I’d like to be in contact with more people, I’m looking at it that way. So I feel like by giving it a purpose that suits you where you’re at, rather than just jumping in and being overwhelmed or wasting all the time or whatever, just go in with a very specific, very targeted goal.

Kate
But it’s like, you know, when you go into Netflix, and someone has given you a recommendation of a show, and you go straight to it, and you start watching it, and you maybe watch three episodes to decide whether it’s for you or not, and then boom, off you go. If you go to Netflix, and you’re not really sure what you want to watch, you can be scrolling around and clicking on things for an hour. And that’s what clubhouse can be like. So, you know, I’ve got a specific question about my podcast, I’m going to go to a podcast room, I’m going to sit down and wait because I want to get the answer from the person. You know, otherwise, you will just kill time listening to a lot of noise. I mean, a lot of people do flaff on on that platform saying just, you know, stuff you’ve heard a million times before. But you feel like I’m on a platform. I’m engaging. Look, I’m on the stage. So look at me building up my brand, you’re not building up your brand, you are procrastinating, you probably already know the answer. And the hour, you just spent would have been spent a lot better writing an email to your existing audience or, you know, doing some financial stuff and balancing your books or cleaning up your desktop. You know, so I’m using it a lot when I’m doing non work things, walking the dog, washing the dishes. That’s a good time for me to be on clubhouse at 11 o’clock on a Monday, nah ah, I’m going to be working then. You know, because at the moment, I think there are possibly more effective ways to build your brand. But, you know, other people are on there. 24 seven. So you know, it’s all horses for courses, as they say.

Rowena
Now, I’m going to be really, really honest with this next question. I’m a bit of a web noob. When I first went into business for myself, I had to Google what the what f SEO was.

Kate
Don’t worry, most people are like that.

Rowena
So can you give us a really brief rundown and why it should be a business BFF versus being this big, intimidating thing? Why should it be something that we actually look at investing in?

Kate
SEO is quite simply making Google fall in love with your website. So it’s got a long list of things it’s looking for, I compare it to the bachelor, you know, he’s got 20 websites to choose from, but he knows that he wants one that’s fast, that loads really well, that looks good on his mobile, there’s nice colours that’s easy to read and it gets to the point, that’s what he wants in his ideal web, Bachelor partner. And so that, you know, there’s 200 or so things that Google are looking for, and most of them are common sense because Google is based on human interaction. So what humans want Google wants, you want to fast site not a slow site, it’s common sense. 95% of it is common sense. So why should Is it important? Well, they say that something around 70% of all transactions of any kind, and I mean, someone approaching you as a graphic designer for services, to someone buying a jumper on ASOS, all transaction, 70% of them start with a Google search. They don’t start on Instagram, they don’t start on Facebook or clubhouse. If I want to go and buy something, and I have that conversion intent. Or even if I just want to know something, and I have that informational intent, where do I go, I go to Google, I go to Google. So if you are not ranking well, on Google, you may as well not really be on the internet, just think to yourself, when was the last time you typed in a full URL, I just don’t do it. Even if, if I wanted to find you, I wanted to find your contact details. First thing I’m going to do is go and type your name into Google. And so you better have that homepage all about you. Even if I want to go to the Nike site, I’m going to type Nike into Google rather than nike.com into the browser. So it’s just about it’s where most of your traffic is coming from anyway. And yet, unfortunately, I think a lot of people spend a lot of time on Instagram, a lot of time on Facebook, and just neglect SEO, and then wonder why they’re not making money in their business. Because they are essentially marketing, often to their peers, or marketing to people who don’t have the money and who are not their ideal client. So yeah, that’s why SEO is very important.

Rowena
It’s a very big part that why I became disenchanted with social media over the last couple of years. And it’s really come down to working out where my time is best invested. And then where my marketing dollars are best invested and figuring out what’s the balance between the two. And I have to be honest, I’m seriously looking at taking a big shift away from Instagram and stuff and moving more into a LinkedIn space and moving into these different spaces where I’m having conversations or I can, you know, step into a different space with the right people. And I feel like that’s so true.

Kate
Yeah, I mean, you use the best word to use invest. It’s not spend time, it’s invest time. And, you know, no disrespect to Instagram. I mean, that’s how we met through Instagram. I think it’s a great place to make connections. I think it’s a great place to have some fun and be creative. Is it the best place for your business to make money? I can’t answer that, you know, maybe if you’re a product based business or a graphic designer? Yeah, maybe because it’s very visual. As a copywriter. As a business coach, I’m not so sure. I think there’s probably other places I’d be better served.

Rowena
Here’s a good question. So this is a question. I’m going to chuck in a couple of curveballs as well. You call yourself the misfit entrepreneur, because you’re odd. How odd are you really? Can you give us three things that people would find a little bit odd about you.

Kate
Now that you’ve put me on the spot, I’m going to sound totally un-odd. I have a bath in my back garden that’s plumbed in called the Toon bath. Of course, it’s called the Toon tub. So that’s pretty cool. My main food groups are crisps and coffee. I can play the recorder with my nose. I just learned to drive. That’s kind of one thing. I don’t know if it if I’m odd in that, like I’m walking around wearing wellies in a tutu, kind of odd. I think, you know, some people in life I feel like the narrator so I often feel like all that, you know, Morgan Freeman is narrating in the back of my head, you know? So clearly. Yeah, exactly. You know what I mean? I’m, I feel like I have a wry smile when I’m looking at things or I see things in a different way to other people. Now, that probably isn’t true. And I’m just sitting here thinking I’m some special butterfly and I’m not. But you know, I see a lot of people on social media on clubhouse on everything being very this. I always feel like Well, I’m not this I’m that. And I guess that’s all it is being slightly contrarian. And when everyone else is going this way, I just have a natural inclination to want to go the other way. And sometimes it’s not good idea I should be going the way they’re going. But I just can’t help myself. So I think it’s more about not Being like everybody else so desperately not wanting to be like everybody else as well.

Rowena
That’s kind of a rebel mindset in a way as well.

Kate
I reckon. Yeah, a bit of a rebel.

Rowena
Yeah. I’m always that person when, you know people jump onto the bandwagon of a new book or a new series or new Whatever. I’m always that one that I’m just like too cool for that. And then like, 12 months down the track, I’m always like, Oh, my God, oh cave, and I wish

Kate
I was clubhouse. I spent at least a day Pooh poohing it and say, Oh, another platform. And now look at me now I completely suckered it in. So yeah, you know, I don’t think I’m some wacky, Ducky doodle. But you know, I think there’s lots of kind of, I kind of put it across this, you know, the kind of pencil skirt wearing court shoe entrepreneur that has a business plan and nice hair, and it’s very serious and blows confetti on Instagram. That’s just not me. And that’s fine. And I totally get those people who do like to blow confetti. But yeah, I don’t know what I’m talking about. I’m just babbling like a loon.

Rowena
What would you say some of the things that you’ve seen from showing up as yourself, what would you say are some of the biggest impacts you’ve seen in your business or in yourself,

Kate
In myself is the confidence I mean, you just stop giving as many F’s To be honest, and that comes with age as well. But, you know, I know that my brand could be a lot more popular, I could get a lot more people in my coaching memberships and my courses, if I were a bit more straightforward, and if I followed the path that a lot of other female entrepreneurs follow, I can’t I don’t and therefore, you know, I don’t have 20,000 followers on Instagram, and I don’t have blah, blah, bluh, bluh bluh. But the people who do seem to like me, like me harder, and also, they stay around, I’ve had members in my membership, six years coming up to seven years. That’s a long term commitment. And also, while my lists and my followings aren’t big, my income is bigger than some of the fancy pants entrepreneurs, because people will buy more than one thing from me, you know, so the loyalty is better. So you get more, I guess, diehard friends, from being yourself than kind of, you know, indifferent followers, you know that you can have 10,000 followers on Instagram, good for you. But how many of those people are actually handing over cold hard cash month after month, year after year, that’s what really matters. And that’s what a lot of people don’t like to talk about, you know, the reality behind the numbers. Really.

Rowena
I know a lot of people are confronted about really discovering who they are to put it out there as well. And I know I was one of them. But the inner 10 year old me is like totally fist pumping these days. Like she is rocking out.

Kate
Yeah, totally. And I love that. I mean, that’s it, you know, it’s like, we’ve come full circle back to the person that we were before the world told us we couldn’t be that person. And that’s just joyful, you know, cuz I was like, you 10 to 14, I was cool as I was really happy with myself. And then the world slowly chipped away at that confidence until you just you don’t know who you are. And then you know, as you get a bit older, you build that back up again, and you’re like, yeah, I’m gonna be roller skating around the kitchen in my knickers. And I can still do that and be a thought leader and make money and that’s okay. And I love that I love your 10 year old analogy that is fantastic.

Rowena
Well, my 10 year old was a badass like she literally thought the world was at her feet she saw like big plans for like me being this like Uber successful, super confident person and like with you what you said teenage years chipped away at me. But anytime now I feel like I worry about what other people think or what other people say or any of those things. I just literally imagined her standing in the corner with hands on her hips shaking her head at me.

Kate
Yeah, I love that. And I like to think would 10 year old me be proud of me now. And I think I think she would you know I’ve got a dog. I always wanted a dog, I’ve got my little toon cave in the back garden. I’ve got a cute little car. I get to be creative every single day. Got nice friends. Nice son. You know if you actually do ask what would 10 year old me think of me? It actually sweeps away a lot of the ego based nonsense, would she care that I have 20,000 Instagram followers. No, she’d think Instagram was lame. You know what I mean? Would she care that I was speaking at this virtual summit? No. You know, it’s like that 10 year old you is the you that really understands what matters. You have an adult having a you know some cool roller skates, being able to cook whatever you want for your own dinner. Wow. I mean, imagine that just think of that we can make whatever we want for dinner tonight. We don’t have to ask anybody.

Rowena
We could even have cake if we wanted to. There is literally nobody stopping us from having cake.

Kate
This is it. That’s what we should remember in life. We can have our cake and eat it whenever we like

Rowena
to link that into copywriting. You hear so many people say your About page is the second most visited page on your website. How important is to put some of those elements and some of that storytelling into your About Us page?

Kate
I think you know, the about page being the second most popular pages is one of those things, it’s just wheeled out as a stat. Most people if you look at their site, it’s actually not true. But it sounds sounds really, really good. But it is a highly visited page. I think the thing is, your homepage is the most visited page. So that’s where you should start. That’s where you should start telling people who you are. your about page here is some argument about it’s not really about you, it’s about your customers, and what you can do for them, but it’s both. Yeah, but what I like to have, I think, on some people’s sites is it’s great to have either like a brand story page, or a speaker page. But the thing is, this is the problem. Every word you write should be you every picture, every graphic, every social media post, it’s not like going, Oh, this is my about page, I’m gonna start telling people about my values and my perspective. Nah ah ah, I should be able to tell from the first couple of lines on your home page, who you are, what you do, why you do better than anybody else, what you stand for what you don’t stand for? What makes you funny, what makes you interesting, what makes you smart, should be every page, every piece of content, every image, every photo, every design, and this is it. You know, it’s not a checkbox to be ticked, if we’re truly our own personal brand, then everything we do is on brand, because we are ourselves. And that’s it. We don’t need to go back and check our brand guidelines to say do we say this? It just whatever we say is us.

Rowena
Yeah. Now jumping back to a little bit of a silly question, because I like chucking some curveballs in here. And this feels like one of my drunken conversation questions that I always love having with people. If you were an animal, what animal would you be?

Kate
I think I’d be a hamster. I love hamsters, I think they are really cute. And I love all the little tubes that you can get for hamsters. So maybe a hamster. They’re also pretty vicious when they want to be, so yeah a hamster I reckon.

Rowena
Yeah, they’ve got that cute outside, they’re sort of a bit fearful on the inside.

Kate
Yeah, and they can get a lot in their cheeks.

Rowena
I saw something on Tick tock, Honestly once you get on to animal Tik Tok it’s like hours of your life gone.

Kate
And well invested. That is a good investment in your time.

Rowena
It’s always the animals that are a little bit left field that just have me cracking up. There’s the swearing cockatoos and stuff like that just makes me so happy. So happy.

Kate
I saw a meme the other day of someone holding a hamster up to the camera, just saying, Why is my hamster so ugly, and it really was the ugliest hamster in the world. And I don’t know why that was just like the best thing I’ve seen on the internet in a long time. And you know, these, that’s what makes the Internet special and fun. We need more of that in what we do. Ugly hamsters.

Rowena
I feel like everyone needs a little bit of that in their real life everyday as well. Like, you know, if you can show up and make people laugh, or you can show up and make cry, or you can show up and like give them something to laugh at.

Kate
We’re all human. You know, we’re not just on the internet to be. I heard the expression this morning Apex entrepreneurs, which I’ve never heard before. And I’m like, really, you know, we don’t all need to be velociraptors of business all the time. Sometimes we need to be a Diplodocus. And just enjoy chewing through the internet slowly. I don’t know, I’ve gotten too dark now. I told you.

Rowena
This is why this is why I love listening to you talk in any instance we I’m exactly the same. I’ve got shiny object syndrome. Yeah,

Kate
squirrel squirrel squirrel.

Rowena
My nickname at one of my bar jobs. I think it might have been a little bit to do with the amount of Red Bull I consumed was Hammy, You know, the one from ‘Over the hedge’ where he’s just like give him some sugar. And he’s just like everywhere. That’s me.

Kate
I quite like the dog from ‘Up’ quite a lot of the time. Yeah,

Rowena
he’s awesome as well. Now, a lot of people say to me, ah, I love your website, I have actually read it from beginning to end. And that, to me is one of the biggest compliments because it’s actually been one of the biggest investments I also made as well, because I recognised that the part that I enjoyed was the first draft. And the rest of it I really couldn’t be bothered with like it was just too nitty gritty. I needed someone to come in with the expertise and it’s been worth every single penny and it’s constantly the cost that I allow for now. In that situation. Yeah, it’s been invaluable and I am still using that content and repurposing it to this day. What are some of the top values that you would place people say, should I actually hire a copywriter and what’s it even going to do?

Kate
and well I think the thing is we all think we can write just like we all think we have a fantastic sense of humour and amazing dress sense. But we don’t you know we don’t. most of us can’t write and we need someone to come back and just clean up our writing. Most of us make typos, our sentences ramble on. We don’t pick the most interesting adjectives. So all it does You know, a copywriter enables you to sound like you. But the you that you hear in your head, you know that you hear in head or you have a dream, and you have this amazing idea. And then you come to the piece of paper and try and write it down and you just can’t articulate, it just doesn’t come out. I’m the same with design. Like in my, in my mind, I can see how I want the thing to look. And I pick up my pen, and I draw it out. And it looks like it was done by a badger. Do you know what I mean? I have an amazing graphic designer who takes that badger sketch and turns it into something that does look like I want, but I cannot, I do not have the skill to turn my ideas into designs. And some people do not have the skill to turn their thoughts and their desires and their values or whatever into words. And a good copywriter will be able to pull that all out of you get the insights and the stories and also see you in a way that you just can’t see yourself, and then turn all of that into prose so that you when you read it, you go, oh my god, this is exactly how I want to go out into the world. You’ve just expressed it. And wow, that’s what you want. It’s that wow, feeling of you just got me. And so a true copywriter will ask a lot of questions, we’ll listen a lot we’ll mirror your language, it will just be slightly better and the full stops will be in the correct place. And they know how to use a semi colon, which is like a superpower. So you know, most people don’t know,

Rowena
my superpower is dashes. I know how to use dashes properly. Yeah,

Kate
you know how to use an M dash I mean, that’s next level, I don’t even know. And I get paid a lot of money to write copy. But even I haven’t, you know, even I have an editor for my copy. And so you know, not everything, a lot of the things I write myself, but even I need someone to tidy up my writing. And I write all the time. So we can all use a bit of help.

Rowena
But my one of my managers taught me about m dashes. And it was in the most logical way ever. A normal dash joins two words together. An N dash en is for numbers N for numbers. So that’s what you do when you’re joining dates or numbers together. And an M dash replaces a comma.

Kate
Ah I like that connects to related thoughts. Yeah, like that. Very good. Yeah, well done. Gold star, pat on the bottom, Bumble.

Rowena
I’ll take that. I’ve got my shiny gold star on and feeling rather chuffed with myself, I was the gold star girl at school, nothing better than a gold star.

Kate
Seriously, I might buy myself a pack today just to make myself feel better.

Rowena
Right? I want those ones there was actually these stickers I saw out a while ago where it was like stickers for adults, like you did the dishes Good for you,

Kate
you brushed your teeth. Well done. That’s what we need. writing stuff on your to do list you’ve already done, we all need that, you know that feeling of completion. And affirmations is very important.

Rowena
You drunk your water quota for the day.

Kate
100%

Rowena
You didn’t mutter under your breath while your children are being shits. Good on you keep it up.

Kate
And I think this is a really important bit of business that people don’t understand. Most of us are still little kids hoping that someone at the end of the day is gonna say Good job. Rowena Good job. And sometimes we’ll even pay business coaches and mentors to tell us that so you’re doing okay, you’re doing a really good job. And even though we know to ourselves that we already are, sometimes we do just need that pat on bottom, it’s very hard to pat your own bottom, every single day and keep yourself going. You know, motivation and persistence is the hardest thing in business. You know, you can get your processes, your pricing, your positioning, all of that sort. It’s getting up every day and doing the same do really challenging

Rowena
now to chuck in my last favourite question. Like another curveball, this one I love. If your industry became illegal tomorrow, like you couldn’t work doing anything that you’ve done in your industry, what would be your job? What would you go out? And do?

Kate
I’ve always wanted to open like a yurt farm, like have a field with loads of yurts in it, and just have people come and stay in yurts. I think that and then I think well, I don’t really like people. So that would be bad. So I might just have the yurt farm and not have anyone in them. Honestly, Rowena I ask myself that question everyday, if anyone can think of anything I could do instead of what I’m doing, please write it on a postcard and send it to me. Because I don’t know. I don’t know what I would do. I think I’d like to write books, at some point, like proper books about real stories. But I’m not quite ready to give up the adrenaline and dopamine of business life yet. So I don’t know. Maybe the yurts, I don’t know.

Rowena
I would definitely be I would love to be a like a craft teacher but for adults. Because then I could just sit around and learn all the crafts as well, but then people would also be paying me to do it.

Kate
Yeah, that sounds good. I could do that. I’m taking your idea. I’m gonna launch it before you

Rowena
I would love it. So much, because even if nobody turned up, I’d just be sitting there with my own personal instructor going teach me

Unknown Speaker
No, how cool. I would love that.

Rowena
Now for our final wrap up question before we let you get back to your crazy busy week of madness without a business manager, what advice would you give someone hesitant to be more themselves in their business and the power it can have?

Kate
I just think, what’s the worst that can happen? That would be my advice that really take it to the nth degree, you know, really go down that rabbit hole of self doubt and imposter syndrome, where you get muddy in it. You know, what, if someone, you put something out that’s very personal, and someone trolls you? So what? delete the comment, ignore the comment. You know, what if you put something out and people don’t like it, and they don’t buy it, the thing is, you can have a vanilla brand, and people are not going to like your stuff and not buy it. Just try to really go through all your individual fears and try and counter them. That would be my advice, because everybody who I don’t know one person who hasn’t tried to put a bit more of themselves into their business and hasn’t found that it’s just been revolutionary, not just because not really because of the customers. But because it just makes every day so much happier. You turn up every day, and you can you can do whatever you like, you can write the most random thing on Facebook, and it doesn’t matter, you stop judging yourself, you stop being a perfectionist, you stop waiting to get things perfect, because you’re just you and you’re like you and you put yourself out there and it just makes your whole day happier. So I just really encourage people to give it a try. At the end of the day if you try being yourself for a year and you don’t like it, you can stop and go back to being vanilla wearing a polo neck jumper and having your hands over the keyboard like every other copywriter or whatever. And you can always reverse it, you know, disappear for a bit come back, reinvent yourself, but I think once you start it’s addictive, it’s addictive liking yourself. It’s really rather lovely. And just think what would 10 year old you want me to do? That would be my piece of advice.